I am Aoyama, LDP, Kokoro. I am going to ask questions not for the sake of party politics but simply for the interest of Japan. Thank you (bow)

Before making questions I would like to express my condolences from my soul for the people who lost lives and their surviving families in the heavy rain disaster which attacked Kyushu again (bow).

Well, I appreciate Mr. Kato Moriyuki, the former Ehime governor, and Mr. Maekawa Kihei, the former Vice Minister of Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, for attending this Diet deliberation as witness (bow). The two of you were serving in the same ministry, and Mr. Kato is senior to Mr. Maekawa so I introduced Mr. Kato first.

Well, now I begin with that; in Japan today, serious, new crisis began to appear such as avian influenza, foot and mouth disease, BSE and mad cow disease. The infection route of avian influenza, which was “from birds to birds” in the past, now is in new terrifying phase at least found in China, where it developed to “birds to humans”, furthermore “humans to humans” that caused death of humans eventually. This proved that virus of avian influenza is mutated repeatedly and getting its infectiousness higher. In Japan we have to keep preparing against the risk of probability that highly pathogenic avian influenza spreads to humans.

And in Miyazaki we have already experienced the outbreaks of the foot and mouth disease in cows and pigs that caused tremendous damages to cattle farms. This is also virus. In addition, mad-cow disease had developed in Hokkaido, Chiba, Kanagawa, and Kumamoto.

The media seem to forget about it and do not report it anymore, therefore the people began to lack a sense of crisis, that is more serious matter.

Before I became a member of parliament, I was engaging in the business of crisis management in private sector for long time. I recognized very well how sacred of the duty of the government and parliament is, to protect the people from the new risk of virus, which is derived from animals.

From such point of view, before the so-called Kake-gakuen issue arose, I, as a humble member of experts of private sector, was working with municipality and government as necessary and have been facing the shortage problem of veterinarian who can handle the animal virus.

According to the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, among 39,000 veterinarians in Japan, pets related veterinarians accounts for 30 percent, the highest, and public veterinarians who are responsible for epidemic prevention and improvement of livestock, 9 percent only.

Before my questioning today I inquired the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries again, and got an answer as that;

The industrial animal veterinarian is, a veterinarian who can handle the virus as mentioned before. In several areas the positions of industrial animal veterinarians are not filled satisfactory, therefore students of veterinarian are offered the loan of education fund under the condition that he or she must be going to work in the local area. It shows the difficulty to secure the industrial animal veterinarians in those areas, that was the answer from the Ministry. In Ehime prefecture the number of such loan of education fund is 9 cases. The third highest across Japan. In Tokyo no such loan case found.

Mr. Ogawa Ryosuke, Minister's Secretariat, the government witness of Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, am I correct? Please answer me in short.”

I respond to your question, sir. Concerning the project to loan the education fund to veterinary students as you mentioned, 16 municipalities enforced the project in 2016 and in Ehime 9 cases implemented, the third highest in Japan.

I ask the witness Mr. Maekawa. To my understanding, you made a statement that Japan has no shortage problem of veterinarian, therefore it makes administration to be distorted if Kake-gakuen creates a new veterinarian faculty in Imabari city in Ehime. Do you know the real situation as I mentioned? (buzzing in the hall)

Well, no, sir. Well, there is an issued notice that any application for new establishment of veterinary faculty should not be accepted. Against the notice whether a special case should be provided or not, the notice should be abolished or not, or the policy to control the number of students who enter the veterinary faculty should be abolished or not – those issues should be discussed in policy debate. It can be discussed in a issue of National Strategy Zone, or discussed in general.

And, the issue whether the deregulation should be done or not, and the issue whether the new establishment of veterinary faculty should be permitted to Kake-gakuen as a result of the deregulation or not, are in different dimensions. The part, which I believe distorted, is a process in which Kake-gakuen alone was permitted the new establishment of veterinary faculty as a result of deregulation. I think that part is problematic, and doubt its fairness or transparency and should be investigated.

As a matter of fact, the statement made by the witness Mr. Maekawa was just as expected. I will ask you about it later again.

Now, witness Mr. Kato, you have been facing the problem of veterinarian shortage in the front line of the municipality. What is the real condition? And what do you think about the statement made by the witness Mr. Maekawa?

I respond to your questions, sir.

Before that I would like to express my gratitude wholeheartedly for inviting me as witness.

As long as 10 years ago, I remember that I, as a governor of Ehime, applied for the attraction of veterinary faculty, under the name of Special Deregulation Zone then. In those days our application was totally ignored and now after 10 years since then so many people began interested in this issue – I felt strange.

In those times, as the governor of Ehime I was responsible for many issues including the life of Ehime people, their health, properties, promotion of cattle business, food hygiene, etc. Among that the toughest problem was the prevention against the possible infection in Shikoku of avian influenza, or foot-and-mouth disease, or the prevention of BSE influence in Japan.

Shikoku is a small island and/yet I believe that it is most manageable to prevent those infectious diseases. Meanwhile the US had experienced mad cow disease and started to emphasize the education of veterinary based on the life science as well as the measures against infectious diseases by increasing significantly the number of students and new establishment of three veterinary faculties.

Watching the US which is tackling the issue with full efforts, I was frustrated in Japan where nobody cared about this issue. At least 10 years ago I challenged it with the dream and hope of the people in Ehime, and in Imabari area. We applied against the thick rock of regulation and were rejected repeatedly, then finally it is realized in the frame of (original word; international ) National Strategy Zone. I am very pleased now.

For the statement made by Mr. Maekawa that administration was distorted, as remarked before, I would object by saying that; as far as the veterinary faculty is concerted, we have been enduring the rejection for 10 years due to the massive rock of regulation, and now the National Strategy Zone drilled a hole, that is, the distorted administration was corrected – that is the right expression, I believe. (buzzing in hall)

I see. The statements of witnesses Mr. Maekawa and Mr. Kato were completely conflicting. I will follow the matter later, after I asked one more question. Regarding the issue of veterinarian I would like to ask both of the witnesses.

There is another problem in the education of veterinarian. Currently the regulated number of student is 930, nevertheless the number is padded to 1200. If the MEXT considers the demand is balanced, it doesn't make sense. It means 23% of padded students is ordinary practice.

I interviewed a number of people at universities. And I found that many students cannot enter the class room and standing in the corridor, just observing the lesson. In actual practice, which is most important in the education, some students are peeking from behind – this differs from university to university, but I heard this happens often.

I heard that currently MEXT is engaged in correction of the padded number of student. I heard it from MEXT. But if the number is corrected, 270 of veterinarian per year, almost one fourth of veterinarians in new generation will be decreased. Well, is this not a proof that the education of veterinarian is not sufficiently given by the current universities, that is, the universities of veterinarian are in shortage. Witness Mr. Maekawa, what is your opinion about this?

Well, the matter of correction of the padded students in private universities is existing as general matter. This is an issue to be discussed as well as the way to utilize the government subsidies to private universities.

However, the demand for veterinarian and, desirable number of students in veterinary faculty for responding the demand, should be discussed politically, well, and the control of the regulated number should be implemented politically, for the time being, that is, it is not desirable to abolish it all at a time, I think so personally.

For the matter of veterinarian, if it is necessary to increase the number of student, that is not determined yet, but if it is necessary to increase the number of veterinarian in education, there is another way that is to increase the number of student in existing universities – some of the existing universities have enough staff, furthermore, the regulated staff, that is, structure of instructor system can be improved.

It is much more difficult to create a completely new veterinary faculty, and an issue how to fill the instructors of the new university must be very difficult problem to solve. If you bring the new instructors to the new faculty from the existing universities, the system of instructors in the existing universities will be weakened. There is such problem, therefore, if the matter is simply to increase the number of students, well, generally, to increase the regulated number of student in the existing universities needs lower cost. As a matter of fact, such means is adopted for doctors to decrease the number of supply. I think we have to think this issue politically considering such choice included. (Mr. Kato, former Ehime governor, shaking his head with wry smile.)

I see. I listened humbly what the witness Mr. Maekawa stated, that is, in short, reinforcement of the given system is desirable. If it is feasible no problem, but if so the current situation of padded students couldn't be happened, for all the educational institutes of veterinarian are working with resolutions. Based on that, I'd like to ask the witness Mr. Kato about this issue.

Since we have started to apply for the Strategy Zone we have met a number of rejection. We tried several approaches and confronted the most negative opinion which came from the Japan Veterinary Medical Association (JVMA).We didn't have any direct contact with them then, but I found their totally negative opinion in their website concerning the new establishment of veterinary faculty. Their message is that, in short, they would do the education satisfactory, therefore, do not do anything unnecessary.

I have been wondering since then that – in my term I called Kanto from Hakone-no-Sekisho (Hakone Checkpoint) to the east – 80 percent of (total) regulated number of student is designated in Kanto, the area from Hakone-no-Sekisho to the east, and only 20 percent in Kansai, the area from Hakone-no-Sekisho to the west. And the private universities have padded students, so actually 80 percent or possibly 90 percent of educated veterinarian are collected in Kanto, the area from Hakone-no-Sekisho to the east. Empty area is Shikoku. We can't secure veterinarians. I, as a governor of the prefecture, tried possible means to invite veterinarians. For example, the local officials must pass a competitive examination as a principle, nevertheless we offer the veterinarians no-test, so please come. But they don't.

From the point of negative view of JVMA, it is because we don't treat them well;

Can Ehime prefecture or Shikoku make the compensation system of veterinarian better than those of government official veterinarian? And if you can do it, are you not going to decrease their salary once the number of veterinarian is filled?

For the matter of payment they say that Ehime's payment is low that's why nobody want to go and they say the students don't go Shikoku because we don't offer them scholarship. They say, “All the students come to Tokyo, then we educated them and make them return.”

Does it make sense?

We have been kept watching JVMA who oppose us about the establishment of new faculty.

I am afraid to say that, the JVMA is leaving the regulated number of instructor in universities, as it is, from 10 years ago until today, saying that no new instructors should be made, while the US is tackling hard with this issue.

In this case too, I can't understand why they try to stop us to increase the number of veterinarian instructor for prevention against infectious diseases, or to create staff for wide range study such as life science or the study of drug discovery with animal experiment. If they insist so, I would like to say, why they didn't make well-staffed themselves to follow the example of US for these 10 years? They leave as it is, nevertheless, they say us not to create. It does not make sense, I have been thinking so.

If you allow me to spare your time – in the end of my term of governor, Democratic Party had taken the government. The Democratic Party said this issue could not be solved by Liberal Democratic Party, and they started to work. The stage of closed door improved to a stage to consider for the realization. Good, and I handed the matter to the next governor.

However, when the Liberal Democratic Party came back to the government, we found nothing moved. They had done nothing, nonetheless they try to stop Imabari doing something. That is advocates of vested interests – is it so? I have been frustrated for long.

Now this issue is taken up in the National Strategy Zone, and I, who has been involving in this issue, joined a member of supporters as a special adviser of Chamber of Commerce in Imabari city.

Watching this issue, I think, the most important thing is to educate veterinarians for the advanced science which is comparable to the US, and for the measures against infectious diseases, on which our Japanese lives depend on. Untouched this issue, they say, Imabari No, Imabari No, because it is done with Kake first – I don't understand.

I did not consider Kake first. It happened a member of the prefectural assembly in Ehime who was elected in Imabari, and the manager of Kake-gakuen were friends that led to the plan and I jumped at the opportunity. (buzzing in hall). Is it not allowed? Because they were friends, so everything is wrong?

Reflecting like that, I, for the first time, revealed a part of my heart by borrowing this opportunity. (buzzing in hall)

The witness Mr. Kato was serving as high as Chief Cabinet Secretary in former Ministry of Education and as I mentioned before, he was senior to the witness Mr. Maekawa.

There was a real discrepancy between the vested interests which MEXT and former ME have been protecting as well as the wall of regulation, and, the municipalities, especially local people, their duty to prepare risks – Mr. Kato told it to us in modesty and openly.

The undersecretary Mr. Maekawa told that the problem is “Kake first”, well, my given time is getting less, but I want to ask about this issue.

That is; the process – regarding to new establishment of veterinary faculty in Okayama University of Science - Kake-gakuen in Imabari, Ehime, a number of documents were discussed. There are generally full of memos running around in the ministry, that is what I knew well since my time of political reporter.

I think, it is better not to depend on such memos but to check carefully the cabinet decisions or the minutes on the decision of National Strategy or other revealed documents in public in order to make clear of the process – well, personally I think the process is very clear.

First, MEXT issued the notice on this issue in 2003, which the witness Mr. Maekawa mentioned.

This notice – the members in this room today know the notice, but for the people in general this is not familiar – this is not a law, nor government ordinance, nor ministerial ordinance, but a kind of order, well, order might be too strong word, but something having significant power, which the office can issue. I was a reporter once but I say honestly I didn't check those notices. So the people in general come to know the reality of those notices only when they became those concerned.

So I have to point out the notice, by which the new establishment of university such as veterinarian is not allowed in fact, was issued in 2003. Well, for the sake of fairness I say that this is not only for veterinarian but for 4 types of profession, mr. doctor, mr. dentist, mr. veterinarian and mr. sailor.

And, sorry, well, before the notice in 2003, they took such posture already, and it was confirmed again by the notice, therefore, for half of century, any university and faculty was not newly established at all.

Against this, as the witness Mr. Kato mentioned, Ehime prefecture and Imabari city jointly invited a veterinary faculty, and Kake-gakuen alone responded in 2007, three years after the notice.

The witness Mr. Kato told of 10 years struggling. He didn't use the word struggling, but his message was very exact in chronological order.

For 8 years after that, not only Kake-gakuen but the municipality, as shown as Mr. Kato, the governor of Ehime prefecture then, who is now presenting here, have been working for it. As a result, it was approved by the Cabinet that, if 4 conditions, including the proof of new demand, are satisfied, a new school of veterinarian is allowed to be established in the National Strategy Zone. It was two year ago, June 30^th 2015.

In the previous year the basic policy of the National Strategy Zone was approved by the Cabinet so anyone can read the policy.

In the document it mentioned that, well, this is related with the matter that Yamamoto Minister told before, uh, no answer is needed, sir, that is; if a ministry or government office has a difficulty to ease a regulation, the ministry or the government office is obliged to explain its justifiable reason. In technical word it is called a burden of proof. That is included in the policy.

Accordingly the responsibility, that MEXT must explain whether new demand for veterinarian is existing or not, based on the 4 conditions as mentioned before, till the end of 2015, that was till 31^st March last year, arose practically. However, MEXT didn't complete it till the end of the last year. Watching it or not, Kyoto Sangyo University rose its hand. It was March 2016.

Meanwhile, the government, in this case Abe government, did not conclude this a defeat of MEXT and gave a half of year and on 16^th September 2016 they hold a hearing of working group of National Strategy Zone. At the hearing a deputy director said that; the burden of proof whether new demand is existing or not, is on the university, well, in my translation, the party who wants to create new university or new faculty has the burden, but MEXT has not.

However, the party of working group, for example, Mr. Hara (Eiji) who attended here as a witness, stated that, the burden of proof is on MEXT. Mr. Hara's word is totally opposite. He said that the burden of proof has MEXT but they said opposite. (buzzing in hall)

This minutes can be read by anybody, so if you read the minutes you will find that MEXT did not make objection at all. Therefore the discussion was completed then.

The reason MEXT has the burden of proof is that they have the total power to permit the new establishment of university or faculty. MEXT know it very well that's why they did not argue and eventually it is concluded.

I would say again. This is not just a my guess nor my selfish logic – if media reads the context they will come to understand.

Now, the issue of internal document, very controversial document, which is claimed that the document implies the Prime Minister's intention. According to the witness Mr. Maekawa's answer Mr. Maekawa himself seemed recognized the document a memo, and the memo was made only 10 days after the conclusion, concluded in fact. It was 26^th September 2016.

That is, the negotiation in the director class, in this case assistant director in practical, that was concluded in the level, is intervened by Prime Minister – that is unthinkable to the people in the administration. Actually I asked about this all the acquaintances in ministries including foreign ministry and ministry of defense, whom I knew since my reporter's age and nobody said it could be. Then, why it arose as an issue at the diet (jeering)? – rather, by this, a doubt is presented to me.

Now, for the sake of fairness, I say this is my guess, that this memo is a document for internal MEXT in order to excuse themselves, that “we were defeated but it was due to Prime Minister's intention.” Isn't it the most reasonable explanation? (buzzing in hall).

Aside from the matter that my analysis is right or not, a reacted party was Japan Veterinary Medical Association, as mentioned by the witness Mr. Kato.

Mr. Kurauchi Isao, the head of the Veterinary Medical Association was interviewed by Nishi-Nippon Newspaper.

After the decision of deregulation was made, the party of JVMA realized keenly that the matter was concluded once and for all at the hearing of the working group, therefore he said (in the interview) that;

“After the deregulation was decided, we asked to make it one school, one school only at the very best. If we cannot prevent the new school establishment, we thought that we must restrict it to one school only. ”

Please check this also by the original source of the interview.

So accordingly, in the year, in the autumn of November of this year, Kyoto Sangyo University, who has been newly applying, withdrew the application, – well, I asked my acquaintance in Kyoto Sangyo University, I am sorry I cannot say the person's name who declined all requests of interview, but the person said the University would not want to force themselves and gave up this time, expecting for the next opportunity. This is not official statements and I cannot prove its credibility, it is personal remark, but after hearing the remark what do you think? Don't you think it is very reasonable? (“Yes!” from the hall) (buzzing in hall) (“Easy to understand!” from the hall)

And after the withdrawal of the Kyoto Sangyo University – I don't think the withdrawal influenced it, – next year, that is, January of this year, Kake-gakuen was designated as Zone operator.

Well, and, assume that, by the strong request from the Veterinary Medical Association – well, I do not ask the question for the sake of the Liberal Democratic Party but for the national interest, that's why I ask (buzzing in hall) – after it was determined to limit to one school only by lobbying of the Veterinary Medical Association toward the political circles including LDP, if the Kyoto Sangyo University, who had applied last year for the first time, was selected as the one, we would think, Why? What happened? – it could have been serious matter.

Conversely it is assumed that the decision of withdrawal of Kyoto Sangyo University was partially influenced by the strong lobbying of the Veterinary Medical Association. I have read official documents repeatedly in details and I concluded so, no other process. (buzzing in hall)

I ask the witness Mr. Maekawa about this process. Please forgive me if you feel my remark offensive.

Did you know those circumstances in details when you were serving an incumbent, that is, before you came to the parliament like this?

Well, ah, I, ah, when I was working at MEXT as incumbent, there were many things invisible. Why it was the basic premise that the date of opening of the school was determined as April 2018? For this issue I found no rational explanation and finally I got an explanation that it was said by top level in the office of Prime Minister or Prime Minister's intention – well, this should be explained by the cabinet office, and many parts were not in charge of MEXT, so there are many things which I have no knowledge.

However, well, ah, in Japan Revitalization Strategy Revision 2015, well, there are 4 conditions that were decided by Cabinet in June 2015. It was a Cabinet Decision, therefore the Cabinet Decision must be kept by those who is engaged in any ministry or any office, or Special Zone Advisory Council, as a member of Cabinet.

Well, in this Cabinet decision there are 4 conditions that should be satisfied and of which MEXT had been concerning.

Well, first, a plan by presenting party must be specified that it is different from an existing veterinarian education. Well it was presumed that Imabari city would present such plan. And it is true that Imabari city presented something. Against it, what MEXT said? Well, if you read the minutes of the working group you will know that MEXT pointed out each of them that this or that is done or given by existing university. Against this no reaction came.

Therefore MEXT, well, based on the 4 conditions, well, insists that the plan, which was presented by Imabari, does not satisfy those conditions, but discussion did not continue since that.

After that, in anyway, it is said it should be decided. It is said the four conditions were satisfied. Someone decided. So that was that, MEXT insisted at the working group that the conditions were not satisfied, you will see that if you read the minutes. (buzzing in hall)

So, it doesn't make sense to claim the burden of proof based on this, and, well, first of all, which one should explain the necessity first in the discussion in the government – which one should take the burden of proof first, well such that, making the order of turn is probable in the sequence of discussion.

However, as the result that the Cabinet Office won, MEXT lost, therefore MEXT should explain to the people that they do this – this cannot be an explanation to the people. The whereabouts of burden of proof, and the accountability to the people are completely different, and the accountability to the people should be taken by the government as a whole, (jeering), well, there is a burden of proof first and MEXT was lost in the discussion so MEXT must explain – this shouldn't be led to such discussion.

Well, as a matter of fact I want to trust Mr. Maekawa, but your statement is very strange, and from your speech in general I came to see that you did not know all the processes as I mentioned, though you did not say so. If you knew you must have said so.

And, one thing, you said that having the burden of proof and the accountability to the people are two different things.

If those are different things it is the end of democracy. Yes, it is. We don't know for what purpose are we doing this deliberation.

Regarding the burden of proof – I don't want to say this but it is you who switched the subjects in your talk. (buzzing in hall)

So if you talk it with a motive, I hope you will avoid it.

And now time is running out, therefore I'd like to hear the witness Mr. Kato about this issue.

Well, MEXT is my old haunt, well, ah, in a progress of the times and international trends, I think MEXT as well as others must ask yourself if we are in right course.

I myself began to involve with this matter, which has been rejected and as time passed, in parallel with our approach, the pharmaceutical department, for example – the separation trend of medical and dispensary practice had increased, and the students of pharmaceutical department suddenly increased by 6000, well, 5000 something, close to 6000. The number of universities became almost double. But for this matter, nobody cared what about the demand, what about the supply, or what about the burden of proof.

And what happened now is; tens of thousand of over-supply of pharmacist to come – what to do? that is a big problem.

On the other hand, for the veterinary faculty it is said no money allowed or having the burden of proof or not that I was not involved with.

While I was listening the discussion I think something. As far as I know, since we presented our plan, the veterinary faculties in private universities in Tokyo hold 45, 50 or so of professors formation and kept it until now without responding to the progress of the times.

Meanwhile the veterinary faculty which Imabari city is planning now will hold a formation of 72 of professors and engage in the life science and cli...., as well as research against infectious diseases in various ways.

Of course, it is likely for an existing, for example, a department of medical faculty, to work something, but, well, what to say, like a mean old woman's saying, the pharmaceutical department can be created freely, but veterinary faculty No, no money spared at all. How could such things accepted in the internationalized age, the age we should not be left behind of the western world. I came here to appeal that. Quibbling is enough.

And I would like to add this. I have been working at Kasumigaseki for 30 years. We had done negotiations between ministries and government offices. On behalf of our own ministries we exchanged heated arguments, with fierce words, or occasionally like a fox borrowing lion's authority. However, after the matters were settled, we exchanged sake cups talking “Hey, you said such bitter words, huh?”, or something like that, then we moved to the determined policy or next policy. That was the culture of Kasumigaseki.

In this case, I felt no Kasumigaseki culture. Has the time changed? For the sake of the Japanese people, at least, we have to think, who needs what, in the tide of time. I feel very sorry that, the veterinary faculty is treated like a toy without essential discussion in this way.

Now, 5 minutes left.

Well, the witness Mr. Maekawa was involved in an illegal incident of amakudari (descent from heaven with golden parachute) and resigned, that is public fact. Regarding the situation of amakudari, the witness Mr. Maekawa said, at the press conference on 23^rd June, that the witness did not know the situation in details.

Frankly I was very surprised to watch the press conference. I saw the video as well as the documents.

If it is true, it is nothing but abandonment of responsibility, or negligence, of the undersecretary. If it is not true, it might come to the critical matter, that the witness has no understanding of, illegal, the illegality in the amakudari mediation.

I try to manage to spare time for Mr. Maekawa to answer but;

I want to point out for example – Mr. Kurauchi (蔵内）, the president of the Veterinarians Association wrote his essay called Shunkashutou “spring, summer, autumn, and winter” in the internal magazine of the association, that; “I am trying to improve the conditions of the existing veterinarians. For that purpose, I oppose to increase the number of veterinarian. As a direct approach for it, I will oppose new establishment of university which would lead to increase of veterinarians.” – he wrote this clearly in his essay.

Including the institutes for veterinarian education, all the approval rights for school is in the hand of MEXT. Therefore the schools receive the amakudari MEXT officials, and in the MEXT, the officials including the undersecretary proceeded amakudari to schools against the law, that's why the witness Mr. Maekawa was resigned due to this matter.

As shown in the Veterinary Society – I don't believe all the veterinarians follow it, but the society's attitude to protect the existing universities exclusively, and the issue of amakudari are not related? That is; this is related with the darkness of Japan in which politician, government officials, businessmen, and private sectors, any and all sectors who try to protect their vested interests.

On the issue of approval for new school; MEXT would not try to leave it to the competition by which only good schools can survive, but try to protect the existing schools and do not ease regulation, reasonable or not, that is the posture of MEXT today. I worry about that again at this deliberation.

Four minutes left. Excuse me the witness Mr. Maekawa, if possible share the time 2 minutes for each, well, excuse me, please tell your opinion in short.

Well, the issue on establishment of veterinary faculty in National Strategy Zone in Imabari city, its discussion, and the issue, which is related with so-called amakudari, or re-employment regulations violation, should not be discussed in the same line. (buzzing in hall)

If you want to connect, well, specific example is director Kiso. Director Kiso is senior to me, and he is serving as Special Adviser to Cabinet, well, in addition to the Special Adviser to Cabinet and serving as director of Kake-gakuen as well. With two titles, he visited me, well, uh, and sounded out about the establishment of new veterinary faculty in Kake-gakuen.

I believe, this approach by OB to a person on active duty, is most typical problem of amakudari issue, and I did not try to affect such approach by the director Kiso, on any policy decision.

Well, I made a person in charge to convey the fact of visit, but I believe that, we should not make such approach to affect such things as to provide convenience, to ease inspection, or to soften the attitude, and actually did not happen so.

I believe to tie the issue of amakudari with the issue on veterinary faculty is inappropriate.

No, sir, I believe those two should be connected. That is the most significant difference, Mr. Maekawa.

Before I ask Mr. Kato last, I'd like to tell.

Recently MEXT released the White Paper on Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology. In the first three pages in the White Paper, quite exceptional statements was included, that “all of the members in the ministry reflect seriously about the organizational problem of amakudari. We apologize the people of Japan and take the responsibility of the involvement in structuring of mediation and its operation seriously, therefore three personals in the duty of undersecretaries, – including you, Mr. Maekawa – were placed on suspension.” It was stated like that. I feel that your answer betrayed the statements which your junior staff wrote in suffering.

Excuse me, one minute left. The witness Mr. Kato, please talk.

I was a little bit overwhelming and I might have revealed my mind too much.

But, one thing I didn't mention. After many things, I was informed about the press conference of the members of the private sector experts, of the Advisory Council, National Strategy Meeting on 13^th June, and in Internet, well, uh, not relay broadcasting, well, what is it called? – oh yes, YouTube, I watched the YouTube, for 1 and half hour, and felt overwhelmingly happy.

Especially it was concluded that this deregulation was decided in clear and serene. I believe this is the conclusion for this major incident. This is the most important thing to let the people know.

I was interviewed very often, but I am sorry most media cut the parts what I really wanted to tell except one or two media. I think the YouTube told everything to the full extent.

Thank you very much, sir. I end with this.